Deism and End of Life Worldview

[gnomon]

1> As I see it we cannot have free will if God chooses to end all evil.

2> I see no reason why God can't be both uninvolved and loving at the same time.

3> I presumed he was referring to burning in the "fiery pits of hell for all eternity."

4> Does anyone else feel as I do that God does not have to intervene in my life to prove that he cares?

1__I agree. In the real world, good and evil are complementary, and necessary. If you take away evil, then goodness is good compared to what?

2__My god-model has two aspects. G*D is fundamentally eternal and abstract. But my guess is that the "reason" for creating a spacetime world was selfish : to explore and experience a dynamic reality. Presumably, G*D does that by viewing the world through the eyes and senses of H/er creatures. Consequently, G*D is both impersonal and personal at the same time. When you hurt, G*D hurts. But as I said, it's just a theory.

3__That's a common interpretation. But the "passion" version makes more sense to me, in context.

4__I agree. If you love someone, let her be free.

[Dad]

This conversation has taken a heart-warning turn for me.

Does anyone else feel as I do that God does not have to intervene in my life to prove that he cares? I don't feel spiritually berefit or orphaned. More like a child who has just realized that their parent trusts them enough to stay at home alone, some trepidation mixed with determination to prove I'm up to the task and pride that they feel I'm ready for such a privelige.

This makes sense, but to make perfect sense requires some sort of afterlife rather than total destruction. Now THAT would be caring.

[loveroflife]

This makes sense, but to make perfect sense requires some sort of afterlife rather than total destruction. Now THAT would be caring.

Tis better to have had sensory perception and lost it than to have never had sensory perception at all

[Dad]

Tell that to someone who's been deaf and blind from birth. Or in chronic mental or physical pain for years. Life, if a gift, should not be taken back again anyway, it should be our choice to return it. We are given the gift of reason and presumably to use it. We know right from wrong and if God just pulls the pin on all of us and there is no more...then God is wrong. I don't believe in that kind of God, but if she is the One, then I'd like to give her a severe ticking off!

[cclendenen]

Tell that to someone who's been deaf and blind from birth. Or in chronic mental or physical pain for years. Life, if a gift, should not be taken back again anyway, it should be our choice to return it. We are given the gift of reason and presumably to use it. We know right from wrong and if God just pulls the pin on all of us and there is no more...then God is wrong. I don't believe in that kind of God, but if she is the One, then I'd like to give her a severe ticking off!

I'd say she'd be deserving.

[loveroflife]

It's true I've had a really rather great life on the whole. Super fantastic and with such wonderfulness that I would feel greedy if I demanded for more or a better life after this one. I hope for it though.

But I readily acknowledge that my good life has not been shared by all. Like the people you mention who were never dealt a fair deck and have had more than a fair shair of sorrow and misery. i.e. The baby who is cooked in the microwave by his drugged out parents or the toddler who is beaten to death to "get the demon out". Where is their chance to experience life? When do they get to experience a good life. What is their recompense for being subjected to such cruelty and horrors?

Reason. Nature. Experience. Of all three, experience could be the main factor by which we interpret the world. My glasses are often rose colored.

[gnomon]

What is their recompense for being subjected to such cruelty and horrors?

For Theologians and other god-modelers, probably even more problematic than the "problem of evil" is the Problem of Unfairness. Unlike the Garden of Eden, the Real World is horrifyingly unfair. Some of us live our lives blessedly sheltered from direct exposure to palpable evil, while others live from cradle to grave in an environment on the outskirts of Hell. So the childlike question naturally arises, "why doesn't God play fair?" Which often translates to "why doesn't God intervene on my behalf?" or "why doesn't God succor my suffering?"

But such questions are irrelevant if God is not actually moving the chess pieces, and playing both sides of the board. That's why I must assume that God is not actively controlling the disposition of good & evil in the world. Instead, our paths through life are controlled by three forces : 1> deterministic natural laws; 2> rational natural selection; 3> personal choices (free will). With that scenario in mind, I have come to view this world metaphorically as a computer-game program running on auto-pilot; which led me to the Deist notion of a hands-off Creator, who sets-up a dynamic program with tricky feed-back loops, and quirky personal choices, to keep the final outcome from being predictable, even for Omniscience. Having set the world in motion, S/he then sits back to see what happens as the players enjoy the thrill of victory (good) and the agony of defeat (evil).

However, most people seem to believe that all the injustice in the world should be counter-balanced by perfect justice in the next life. Then, if there is a heavenly afterlife in our future, we will get our just desserts (recompense) in the form of Karma : evil-doers in this life will suffer evil in the next, while sufferers will enjoy pure goodness. That theory makes some sense to the human mind, partly because our social brains are especially sensitive to fairness and equity. But in reality I haven't seen any reliable evidence to support the Karma hypothesis. So I'm not counting on unhatched eggs, but merely learning to accept whatever comes my way with equanimity. The Greek Stoics, who didn't count on a fair & balanced afterlife, called such this-life accommodation to the ups & downs of life : apatheia, maintaining balance between positive and negative passions. That way, we get our recompense right-here right-now in the form of a noble life.


Reason & Freedom :

<< Stoics were concerned with the active relationship between cosmic determinism and human freedom, and the belief that it is virtuous to maintain a will (called prohairesis) that is in accord with nature. . . .

The idea was to be free of suffering through apatheia (Greek: ἀπάθεια) or peace of mind (literally, 'without passion'),[21] where peace of mind was understood in the ancient sense—being objective or having "clear judgment" and the maintenance of equanimity in the face of life's highs and lows. . . .

Following Socrates, the Stoics held that unhappiness and evil are the results of human ignorance of the reason in nature.>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism

[Dad]

However, most people seem to believe that all the injustice in the world should be counter-balanced by perfect justice in the next life. Then, if there is a heavenly afterlife in our future, we will get our just desserts (recompense) in the form of Karma : evil-doers in this life will suffer evil in the next, while sufferers will enjoy pure goodness.

I doubt that this is how it actually works but this belief is a very powerful ally against evil in this life. God only knows what this world would be like if this was not a factor in most people's thinking.

[Brother John]

I never cease to be amazed by the fact that I exist. Life came to me unexpectedly and through no decision of my own. My existence makes me wonder, "What am I?"

I know that I have a physical body that is amazing in its complexity and design, but even more amazing to me is the fact that I have a personal "consciousness" and "intelligence" (power of reasoning) that enable me to direct my physical actions (and words). It is my personal consciousness / intelligence that I call my "inner self." Ralph Waldo Emerson called it the "infinite soul."

From my own observations, experiences, and reasoning, I believe that God designed human beings to love (care about) each other (we are interdependent creatures). To the extent that we care about each other, we enjoy self-satisfaction in this life, and we can feel content to leave our future in God's care. This is my worldview as a deist.

Brother John

[Dad]

.... we can feel content to leave our future in God's care. This is my worldview as a deist.

The way to go.

[gnomon]

I doubt that this is how it actually works but this belief is a very powerful ally against evil in this life. God only knows what this world would be like if this was not a factor in most people's thinking.

I think you are correct that hope for some form of Karmic justice serves as a psychic crutch to helps most people to endure suffering in this life. But as you noted, it's most likely a false belief. And it places unjustified faith in the goodness of a god who causes or allows evil (the Devil?) to have free reign in this life. This common Christian concept reminds me of Job, who nobly suffered the loss of everything except his life, then as a reward for not cracking he was given a new lease on life, and a new wife & children. That's a strange kind of divine justice : take your undeserved punishment now, and maybe god will make it all better later.

Although I'm aware that the more rational approach of the Stoics to the Problem of Evil does not appeal to many of us, it would seem to be better suited to Deism than the Christian and Karmic theories of heavenly or reincarnated recompense.



"Man is disturbed not by things, but by the views he takes of them."
_____Epictetus

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.
____Shakespeare, Hamlet

[Dad]

Although I'm aware that the more rational approach of the Stoics to the Problem of Evil does not appeal to many of us, it would seem to be better suited to Deism than the Christian and Karmic theories of heavenly or reincarnated recompense.

There are alternatives to these. The older I get the more I feel that most individuals cannot be held totally responsible for their actions. It is only with age, regrets, learning by mistakes, karma in this life and a host of experiences that one can begin to overcome the baser instincts for rat-race survival and success that bring such grief that we might bring on others. If we couple this with the woes brought on by nature and nurture it seems to me that not one of us can be condemned for his/her actions.

Now that is not a healthy approach to self-betterment but it's why I believe an afterlife is for all without judgment for deeds in this life. To me, this world is hell and is only enjoyable because of our rose-coloured glasses (built-in optimism). I don't believe in heaven but I believe in a much better world after this one.
This is a godless place because there is no God here. I hope there is in the next one. It's just a matter of faith and using that built-in optimism.