POSITIVE DEISM


Promoting Online Deist Community and Friendship - Reason and Respect in all you think, say and do

Contributing to the Needs of the Saints

This forum is open to pretty much anything you want to chat about (not just Deism). Just a place for general chatter.

Re: Contributing to the Needs of the Saints

Postby Lily » Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:49 am

Mislilac wrote:Lily, you are saying that only the motivation for one's giving is important, and the end result isn't. I have to disagree,


I'm glad you disagree with that, because it's not what I said at all. The end result would be the good that comes from what you do, and it is every bit as important as ones motivation. You can be generous without really bringing about any good, or you may have less than honorable motives that nevertheless bring about some good. Neither of those will have the impact of a truly altruistic act that brings about a positive change in the life of another.

I don't know if your example of the auto accident is a good one. I can't imagine a situation where financial gain were more of a motive to save someone's life than a basic respect for life. Even if I had some reason to place a lower value on this person's life, I don't think money would motivate me to save him anyway. If I did, I don't think I could walk away feeling like I've done something good. That would not be charity. I don't see how my definition says it is.

I question my motives a lot. It's easy to rationalize and convince ourselves we're doing the right thing, when we're really just looking out for ourselves. Even doing something just because it makes us feel good can make us overlook the impact it has. There are times, when even our good motives are not reflected in the end result, and I wonder if we can still say we've done something good.

A few years ago, I was a year or so out of an abusive relationship, and struggling emotionally and financially. A woman who I had not seen in years suddenly popped back into my life, in need of help. I knew enough about this woman's history to know she should not be trusted, but I also knew enough to have compassion for her. Maybe this was the chance she needed to break away from her past. Maybe she just needed someone to believe in her, to trust her. I have to admit to financial difficulties of my own, and saw the potential benefit to myself. We could help each other. I knew it was risky, but I saw real good that could come of this. So she moved in. To make a long story short, she ripped me off and left me even deeper in the hole, and placed an even greater emotional strain on my family.

I cannot see any good that has come from this. I really did have the best of intentions, but it brought only harm. Even if I had not been in dire straights, I believe I would have done the same, and seen the same result. Understanding that, I know I would not do it again. It's not that I have animosity toward her now, because I don't. I wouldn't do it again just because it wouldn't bring any positive change. My motives were just, and I was generous, but I do not consider this an act of charity, because no good came of it. I would never say that motives are more important than end result, but unless they are good, you cannot say you've done good regardless of the end result, so they need to be examined. There are a lot of people who give to make themselves feel good, or even look good, without really caring what good it does. They call it charity, but it's not, it's just another thing they do to feel good. True charity involves good motives that bring good results.
We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn.
Lily
 
Posts: 283
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:59 pm
Location: Sin City, on the other side of the river.

Re: Contributing to the Needs of the Saints

Postby gainesvillecathy » Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:19 pm

Lily wrote:I question my motives a lot. It's easy to rationalize and convince ourselves we're doing the right thing, when we're really just looking out for ourselves. Even doing something just because it makes us feel good can make us overlook the impact it has. There are times, when even our good motives are not reflected in the end result, and I wonder if we can still say we've done something good.




I am enjoying the tone of this thread. These are the types of discussions that can make a difference in how others approach the problems in our world.
Deist by Choice, Reason by God

"And this, our life, exempt from public haunt, finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, sermons in stones, and good in everything."

~ William Shakespeare
User avatar
gainesvillecathy
 
Posts: 973
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:54 am
Location: Gainesville, FL

Re: Contributing to the Needs of the Saints

Postby Yehya » Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:28 pm

Greetings

I question my motives a lot. It's easy to rationalize and convince ourselves we're doing the right thing, when we're really just looking out for ourselves. Even doing something just because it makes us feel good can make us overlook the impact it has. There are times, when even our good motives are not reflected in the end result, and I wonder if we can still say we've done something good.

What is the old saying - the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I try to look at each situation as an individual action, make the best choice I can, and move on. I don't mind looking out for myself, I have been doing it so long and I don't expect anyone else to do it. I consider it natural. I look out for my family but as a husband and father that's what I do. So to me they come first, me second, and everyone else third.

That doesn't mean I would do anything unethical or immoral or hurt anyone else as part of looking out for myself. Or treat others badly or fail to help where I can. As long as your priorities are right and you make the best choices you can you just live with the results

Peace - Yehya
Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on - Winston Churchill
User avatar
Yehya
 
Posts: 436
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:34 pm

Re: Contributing to the Needs of the Saints

Postby cclendenen » Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:26 pm

Deistic thinking shines through in this thread. It is obvious that, for Deists, there are no pat answers, no dogmatic ways to approach life. Most of the time, when asked, "What would/should you do?" the response is "depends'. If there is no time to reason things out, you go with your gut. That is normally the right answer for you anyway. Folks who have been Deists for quite a while have sorted through their feelings and notions and have applied reason. Look at the way people are responding. They are demonstrating that the way they are living their lives is through rational processes, not because some authority figure said that something needs to be done just this way.
How can we expect others to respect our beliefs if we do not respect theirs?
http://naturesgod.org/ - http://unifieddeism.com/community/
User avatar
cclendenen
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2721
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:00 pm
Location: Cedar Park, TX

Re: Contributing to the Needs of the Saints

Postby Mislilac » Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:18 am

Lily wrote:
Mislilac wrote:Lily, you are saying that only the motivation for one's giving is important, and the end result isn't. I have to disagree,


I'm glad you disagree with that, because it's not what I said at all. The end result would be the good that comes from what you do, and it is every bit as important as ones motivation. You can be generous without really bringing about any good, or you may have less than honorable motives that nevertheless bring about some good. Neither of those will have the impact of a truly altruistic act that brings about a positive change in the life of another.

I don't know if your example of the auto accident is a good one. I can't imagine a situation where financial gain were more of a motive to save someone's life than a basic respect for life. Even if I had some reason to place a lower value on this person's life, I don't think money would motivate me to save him anyway. If I did, I don't think I could walk away feeling like I've done something good. That would not be charity. I don't see how my definition says it is.

I question my motives a lot. It's easy to rationalize and convince ourselves we're doing the right thing, when we're really just looking out for ourselves. Even doing something just because it makes us feel good can make us overlook the impact it has. There are times, when even our good motives are not reflected in the end result, and I wonder if we can still say we've done something good.

A few years ago, I was a year or so out of an abusive relationship, and struggling emotionally and financially. A woman who I had not seen in years suddenly popped back into my life, in need of help. I knew enough about this woman's history to know she should not be trusted, but I also knew enough to have compassion for her. Maybe this was the chance she needed to break away from her past. Maybe she just needed someone to believe in her, to trust her. I have to admit to financial difficulties of my own, and saw the potential benefit to myself. We could help each other. I knew it was risky, but I saw real good that could come of this. So she moved in. To make a long story short, she ripped me off and left me even deeper in the hole, and placed an even greater emotional strain on my family.

I cannot see any good that has come from this. I really did have the best of intentions, but it brought only harm. Even if I had not been in dire straights, I believe I would have done the same, and seen the same result. Understanding that, I know I would not do it again. It's not that I have animosity toward her now, because I don't. I wouldn't do it again just because it wouldn't bring any positive change. My motives were just, and I was generous, but I do not consider this an act of charity, because no good came of it. I would never say that motives are more important than end result, but unless they are good, you cannot say you've done good regardless of the end result, so they need to be examined. There are a lot of people who give to make themselves feel good, or even look good, without really caring what good it does. They call it charity, but it's not, it's just another thing they do to feel good. True charity involves good motives that bring good results.


What you are saying totally makes sense and I know see that I misunderstood your post. Sorry about that.
“Doubt is uncomfortable, certainty is ridiculous.”Voltaire
Mislilac
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:49 pm

Re: Contributing to the Needs of the Saints

Postby searching » Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:26 am

HI all,

I started to write down some of my thoughts on this, but after reading Yehya"s Post I realized my approach to this is "exactly" the same as his.

So Yehya I"m with You.

Thomas.
searching
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:57 pm

Re: Contributing to the Needs of the Saints

Postby gainesvillecathy » Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:23 am

searching wrote:HI all,

I started to write down some of my thoughts on this, but after reading Yehya"s Post I realized my approach to this is "exactly" the same as his.

So Yehya I"m with You.

Thomas.



Hello Searching :)

My family and friends are quite familiar with a favorite saying of mine. I can't do anything for others if I do not take care of myself.

As a giver, I had to learn that lesson early on. I believe we should balance our life in such a way that we want to make a positive difference in the world while we are here, but we understand that we have to position ourselves in such a way that we have that capability. We should be active in the world around us in a positive way, but that doesn't mean sacrificing our self along the way. We should recognize our own value and then use it.
Deist by Choice, Reason by God

"And this, our life, exempt from public haunt, finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, sermons in stones, and good in everything."

~ William Shakespeare
User avatar
gainesvillecathy
 
Posts: 973
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:54 am
Location: Gainesville, FL

Re: Contributing to the Needs of the Saints

Postby gainesvillecathy » Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:25 am

searching wrote:HI all,

I started to write down some of my thoughts on this, but after reading Yehya"s Post I realized my approach to this is "exactly" the same as his.

So Yehya I"m with You.

Thomas.



Hello Searching :)

My family and friends are quite familiar with a favorite saying of mine. I can't do anything for others if I do not take care of myself.

As a giver, I had to learn that lesson early on. I believe we should balance our life in such a way that we want to make a positive difference in the world while we are here, but we understand that we have to position ourselves in such a way that we have that capability. We should be active in the world around us in a positive way, but that doesn't mean sacrificing our self along the way. We should recognize our own value and then use it. IMO :)
Deist by Choice, Reason by God

"And this, our life, exempt from public haunt, finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, sermons in stones, and good in everything."

~ William Shakespeare
User avatar
gainesvillecathy
 
Posts: 973
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:54 am
Location: Gainesville, FL

Re: Contributing to the Needs of the Saints

Postby searching » Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:31 am

Hi Cathy.

I'm thinking your approach to this has a strong Feminine outlook, were our's is more Masculine, not really much difference between them.

Hoping you don't find this Patronizing - You strike me as being a very strong willed Person with a hunger for KNOWLEDGE and an ability to share, ( not a common thing
most keep all the good stuff to themselves )

Looking forward to more of your Posts.

Thomas.
searching
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:57 pm

Re: Contributing to the Needs of the Saints

Postby gainesvillecathy » Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:01 am

searching wrote:Hi Cathy.

I'm thinking your approach to this has a strong Feminine outlook, were our's is more Masculine, not really much difference between them.

Hoping you don't find this Patronizing - You strike me as being a very strong willed Person with a hunger for KNOWLEDGE and an ability to share, ( not a common thing
most keep all the good stuff to themselves )

Looking forward to more of your Posts.

Thomas.


Thank you, Thomas. I was looking forward to getting to know you better too, but today is my last day here.

This is a wonderful forum, with some very genuine people who are here to learn. I will miss them. Many of them found their way here after betrayal or disappointment at the hands of religious groups who got so wrapped up in the spotlight that they forgot about what's really important.

I believe it is our responsibility to God to remember what our priorities are and who might be counting on us to lead while keeping both eyes on those priorities. There are many egos out there who are clambering to be stroked.

What I care the deepest about has nothing to do with me as an individual, and I will continue to stand tall on that premise.

Take care, and best wishes to you. ~ Cathy
Deist by Choice, Reason by God

"And this, our life, exempt from public haunt, finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, sermons in stones, and good in everything."

~ William Shakespeare
User avatar
gainesvillecathy
 
Posts: 973
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:54 am
Location: Gainesville, FL

Re: Contributing to the Needs of the Saints

Postby cclendenen » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:19 am

gainesvillecathy wrote:...I was looking forward to getting to know you better too, but today is my last day here.
...

:?:
How can we expect others to respect our beliefs if we do not respect theirs?
http://naturesgod.org/ - http://unifieddeism.com/community/
User avatar
cclendenen
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2721
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:00 pm
Location: Cedar Park, TX

Re: Contributing to the Needs of the Saints

Postby Mislilac » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:38 am

Thank you, Thomas. I was looking forward to getting to know you better too, but today is my last day here.


What's going on? How come you are leaving the forum?
“Doubt is uncomfortable, certainty is ridiculous.”Voltaire
Mislilac
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:49 pm

Previous

Return to Open Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: gnomon and 1 guest