Morality, Ethics, and Religion

[cclendenen]

OK, I see what you are saying, and I do understand. It could be done. It would probably be pretty easy to set up here. Let me talk with the other folks. Guess I was just trying to avoid unnecessary complication. But necessary complication is fine.

[gainesvillecathy]

Cool!

[Yehya]

Greetings

Would we have been able to develop morality and ethics without religion?

I think ethics and morality predate religion. The group dynamics of early man required some sort of rudimentary ethical system or base morality in order to function. This was most likely instinctive and part of our genetic make up.

So I would ask instead would we have been able to develop religion without this rudimentary ethical system? I think religion is the codification of instinctive morality.

Peace - Yehya

[gainesvillecathy]

Well, to be frank, even a pack of wolves has a moral code. It's called cooperation for the benefit of the pack.

Birds also have it. It's called a pecking order.

Basically, humans have a cooperative pecking order, otherwise known as a society.

But when you examine intuition (human instinct) and theories like archetypes and quantum entanglement, you begin to see how you really can't separate religion from our human existence. We are still attached via a spiritual ambilical cord. I have sincere doubts about even the most staunch atheist in the core of their being truly believing otherwise. I think most atheistic lines of thought are just a denial of the possibilities because they can't fully understand or define it. Some personality types want everything in their lives defined and manageable. I'd rather spend my time enjoying the ride.

[Yehya]

Greetings

Well, to be frank, even a pack of wolves has a moral code. It's called cooperation for the benefit of the pack.
Birds also have it. It's called a pecking order.
Basically, humans have a cooperative pecking order, otherwise known as a society.

I think humans have a bit more then a "cooperative pecking order" due to the complexities of the human brain and the greater need for cooperation necessary for survival then among, say, wolves. Our natural capabilities for offense, and defense, are much more limited and required both the development of technology and a more complex social structure to acheice its full potential. It is, I think, this need for complexity that developed into religious based ethical systems.

I don't discount the spiritual side of man in the development of religion. Man is, as I have said elsewhere, a spiritual being having a physical experience. But I think we err when we discount the effect evolution and the physical side has had on our development. It is one of what I see as the most intruiging aspects of Creation, the simple fact that the development of the human race required the development of a basic moral code.

Peace - Yehya

[Lily]

Both Cathy's and Yehya's posts indicate that ethics and morality are instinctive. In early societies, these instincts led to the development of religion, which in turn became a vehicle for the further development of ethics and morality. We cannot separate religion from the evolution of society...many people today still depend on it for their standard of morality, and I cannot deny that religion has been an important part of the development of my own morality. That others have developed a morality greater than mine without the aid of religion is proof that it is not necessary.

Deism has a great opportunity now to show that. I'm afraid that if UD began collection contributions, it would raise questions as to it's motives...with any charity we have to ask how much is actually being funneled to the specified cause and how much goes toward administration costs and other expenses the donor is unaware of. I don't think it would be necessary to become involved in actual collection of contributions. Personally, what I'd like to see is a listing of organizations providing descriptions of services offered and information on disbursement of funds, and illustrations of why they represent the morality of Deism. And not just programs that benefit the poor, there are others who offer different, but much needed services to society. I heard of one today from Apollo Ohno, http://www.asklistenlearn.com/. He travels to middle schools to talk to kids about the issues they face, and he emphasizes the importance of communication between parents and teens. This is just one example. I know I've often given, then wondered if it was really the right thing, or if I'd just helped to line the pockets of rich men. What we really need is information, to help us know we're doing the right thing.

I have sincere doubts about even the most staunch atheist in the core of their being truly believing otherwise. I think most atheistic lines of thought are just a denial of the possibilities because they can't fully understand or define it. Some personality types want everything in their lives defined and manageable.

That perfectly describes my Atheist friend, but the defined and manageable part also fits my Catholic husband. It seems that for them, it is a choice between accepting the names and definitions assigned, or rejection of what cannot be defined.

[gainesvillecathy]

Personally, what I'd like to see is a listing of organizations providing descriptions of services offered and information on disbursement of funds, and illustrations of why they represent the morality of Deism. And not just programs that benefit the poor, there are others who offer different, but much needed services to society. I heard of one today from Apollo Ohno, http://www.asklistenlearn.com/. He travels to middle schools to talk to kids about the issues they face, and he emphasizes the importance of communication between parents and teens. This is just one example. I know I've often given, then wondered if it was really the right thing, or if I'd just helped to line the pockets of rich men. What we really need is information, to help us know we're doing the right thing.

I agree with you, Lily. Attached is a flyer showing the types of conferences and training sessions I attend on a regular basis. There does seem to be momentum in some communities toward these issues. I would love to network with some of these programs while representing a local Deist chapter.



The coaliton I work for also promotes a fatherhood initiative program, which is very valuable in lower income communities.

[gainesvillecathy]

Sorry, I uploaded the wrong one. The file I wanted to show you is too big.

It is about talking about tough subjects with teens. Similar to what Lily is referring to.