The Resurrection

[Lily]

It would be very easy to believe that he was thought to be dead, when he actually wasn't. He may have been in some kind of coma, or even seizure, that would not have been understood. It would explain why his followers were so certain of a his resurrection, as far as they knew, that's what happened. My question now is, what happened to him after that, where did he go, what did he do? He obviously didn't stick around. Why would he abandon his ministry to those he knew didn't quite understand it?

An actual resurrection still leaves the big question of "why?" Afterward, he appeared a few times, over a short period, then was gone. What was the meaning of that, what did it accomplish, and what does it mean to me and you today? I guess this wouldn't matter if he was only believed to be dead. It would have been an unintended occurrence, that has no specific meaning. Maybe.

[julie]

This may not be a valid theory unless you take out the part of the story where Jesus interacted with his followers out. Just some food for thought anyway. Over the years I've had many friends and family members pass. On more than one occasion I've witnessed seeing some individuals who were dead ringers for a few of them. I mean the likenesses were so striking I found myself doing a double take or just flat out staring. I even found myself wondering breifly if they had faked their death. I knew that was absurd, but you know thoughts flow how they do. Could the resurection be a case of mistaken identity? Maybe if said person didn't interact with people Jesus actually knew. I also don't know how tightknit that society was, if that's even a possibility. Just a thought...

[driver]

I think that the Resurrection of Jesus was a spiritual one, not the body.If he had really appeared to 500 people Christian and non Christian historians would have written about it. From NDEs people report going up through a tunnel. They are disconnected from their body while this is happening. I guess you would call this a Resurrection of the spirit or soul.

[julie]

Oh Driver! We agree on so much! I totally believe what you say! I mean it would be all over historical writtings if Jesus actually rose from the dead. I was kinda just what ifing. What if people belive they saw Jesus walking around after being dead for 3 days..The most I can really contribute in this forum is with what ifs. When it comes to the Bible, I know very little. I am enjoying this forum very much though! Christians you can't always be open with. Christian Deists on the other hand are full of biblical knowledge (in the sense you understand its motives, and know where the good lies) and understand the actual historical evidence. I do want to read the Bible ( damn me for not taking the one the Mormons offered me, but that's another story!) And its good to know I have a place to come for help in understanding!

[Lily]

think that the Resurrection of Jesus was a spiritual one, not the body.If he had really appeared to 500 people Christian and non Christian historians would have written about it. From NDEs people report going up through a tunnel. They are disconnected from their body while this is happening. I guess you would call this a Resurrection of the spirit or soul.

Are you suggesting an out of body experience of some kind? Remember, I have no personal experience with NDE or reincarnation, or other concepts regarding the afterlife, so ideas like this are harder for me to grasp. Not that I'm unable to accept the idea, just that I can't really imagine what that would be like, how it would work. I have never heard so many ideas on death and the afterlife until I started talking to Deists, and I find them compelling.

I'm wondering about yours and Mystic's ideas about the Ascension as well, as it relates.

[julie]

Hehe Mystic! Noones excomunicated me yet because I'm pure Deist....Over all the posts I've read of yours, I get the distinct feeling you are Christian and just as much Deist .

[mystic444]

think that the Resurrection of Jesus was a spiritual one, not the body.If he had really appeared to 500 people Christian and non Christian historians would have written about it. From NDEs people report going up through a tunnel. They are disconnected from their body while this is happening. I guess you would call this a Resurrection of the spirit or soul.

Are you suggesting an out of body experience of some kind? Remember, I have no personal experience with NDE or reincarnation, or other concepts regarding the afterlife, so ideas like this are harder for me to grasp. Not that I'm unable to accept the idea, just that I can't really imagine what that would be like, how it would work. I have never heard so many ideas on death and the afterlife until I started talking to Deists, and I find them compelling.

I'm wondering about yours and Mystic's ideas about the Ascension as well, as it relates.

I'm wondering how to respond without writing a 'book'! For general background on how I view the human soul, preexistence, and the 'afterlife' ('resurrection', 'reincarnation', etc.) I guess the best thing I can do is suggest you view my blog entries on those subjects. You can go to this page (http://mystic444.wordpress.com/page/4/) and scroll down to the article on "Reincarnation and 'Near Death'"; then move up to more recent articles on similar subjects. (You might also read my articles on "The Last Days" and "The Olivet Discourse" to get a view on Biblical "End Times" thought that is quite different from the hype presented by 'prophecy experts' like Hal Lindsay).

Concerning the 'ascension' of Jesus, I don't have a hard and fast explanation. (I don't have a dogmatic view of the 'resurrection' either). I toy with several interesting possibilities. (1) This is mostly humorous, though I do accept it at least as a hypothetical possibility: perhaps he was 'beamed up' into a UFO hidden behind the clouds. I do accept the reality of the UFO experiences, and believe there is good evidence that those ETs have been around earth for a very long time. Such writers as Zecharia Sitchin and Von Daniken present some very interesting evidence for this. So I suppose it's possible that Jesus had a UFO connection. But as I said, that suggestion is meant more as humor than as a serious idea. (2) Perhaps Jesus somehow 'hypnotized' the disciples and produced a 'vision' that would symbolize his leaving this earthly existence. There is certainly no 'door to heaven' literally existing in the sky just beyond the clouds through which Jesus could enter a physical 'heaven'. This view (of the 'ascension' being a vision) would perhaps assume that Jesus in reality was able to 'dematerialize' his body and literally 'disappear' from their sight. On the other hand, perhaps Jesus just walked away while the disciples were gazing up into heaven at the vision. (3) Perhaps Jesus was not only able to walk on water, but had mastered the ability to levitate. Then, in order to give a dramatic leave taking, he levitated up beyond some low hanging clouds - perhaps as a symbol of the fact that he was leaving earthly existence - and then dematerialized his body. As the apostle Paul commented, "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 15:50). Jesus could not literally ascend into heaven with his physical body.

Those 3 explanations require an acknowledgment of Jesus' ability to do 'miraculous things', perhaps similar to the things some Hindu and Buddhist Yogis and Gurus are reported to be able to do. I don't have any problem with that, inasmuch I think that science has not even come close to having an exhaustive understanding of all of the 'mysteries' of life and natural law. I believe there are many 'mystical' things that science has yet to discover and understand. However, I also am willing to recognize that the 'ascension' is simply a 'story', as I believe is true of the 'virgin birth', meant to dramatize Jesus' departure in a colorful way; a way that would be interesting and easily remembered. There are stories that Jesus did not actually do anything nearly as colorful as 'ascending into heaven' or 'dematerializing' his body, but instead traveled in disguise to the far east (India perhaps). Some report that he died in his 80s in India, and there is a tomb there purporting to contain his body. I believe Driver has mentioned this before. This view maintains that Jesus did not actually die from crucifixion, so the 'resurrection' was more just a 'recovery' from 'near death'. It would have still appeared to be a resurrection from the dead, since the disciples thought he had died. They would still have seen him alive after his (apparent) death.

I had a professor in Bible College about 40 years ago who used to say, after presenting several interpretations of a passage, "Ya pays yer nickel and takes yer choice". All of those viewpoints have a certain degree of appeal to me, though the idea that it was simply a made up story for dramatic effect holds the least appeal (for me), and the story of his death in India when in his 80s has the next least appeal. I am personally persuaded that the 'resurrection' was historical (even if it was just a 'recovery' in reality), not just a metaphorical story.

Actually, the explanation could be a combination of the various explanations I gave. For instance, Jesus could have either physically resuscitated after death (as in many present day 'near death experiences' like Pipedreamer's) or recovered from 'almost' death; he then appeared to his disciples and others for a while before traveling to India. Just before he left for India, he induced the vision of his ascension; or else the 'ascension' was a 'cover story' conceived by Jesus, his disciples, or both to give as 'public explanation' of his departure from Israel after his (at least apparent) resurrection. Then again, the resurrection could have been 'spiritual' as Driver thinks; and when Jesus was finished with his 'spiritual body' appearances, he just 'disappeared', and the 'ascension' story was a 'cover story' to explain his disappearance. (The stories of Jesus being touched by his disciples, and eating with them, tend to throw doubt on that explanation for me; but it could be I suppose). I don't know; "ya takes yer choice"! I'm not all that much help, am I?

Perhaps Driver or someone else will have some other interesting possibilities.

[Lily]

Thank you Mystic, you've given me a lot to think about, and I'll read your blogs, too.

[driver]

Keep the eye on the ball. Keep your ears open to what Jesus taught in his parables. Jesus was a highly intelligent human being. He invited all to his dinner table. He attacked the purity system of his day. He made a few psycho-somatic or paranormal healings. People could hear in his words the wisdom of God. It's these things that inspired those to write the Gospels 25 to 80 years after his death. There's a lot of myth written into the Gospels

The virgin birth, walking on water, taking 7 loafs of bread and feeding 5000 people with that and a few fish, changing water into wine, etc. were myths. The Resurrection and the Ascension to me are also myths. After his death it would not have been uncommon to have his body thrown to the dogs and nobody ever found him again. But because those who knew him had such a God experience they spelled it out in mythic language as their way of understanding and telling of this experience.